Wish I Had an Angel and Bye Bye Beautiful part of a story?

Hint-hint! I don’t think you ought to read this journal unless you’re more or less all-knowing about the story of Tarja Turunen being kicked out of Nightwish in 2005, and their new singer Anette Olzon, who joined them in 2007. I know very well I’m a geek, so shut the fuck up about telling me. Thank you.

TarjaI read in an interview with Tuomas Holopainen (keyboardist and composer of band Nightwish) that he concider their songs SpelaWish I Had an Angel (from 2004 album Once) and Bye Bye Beautiful (Dark Passion Play, 2007) as part of the same story lyrics-wise.It has also been rumoured that Master Holopainen had a crush, which was verified in an interview – even if he wasn’t deeply in love with her, he at least had a mere crush on her, ”as did almost everyone as she was a very beautiful woman”. My theory: Wish I Had an Angel is about his platonic love towards Tarja, the ”angel” which he cannot have. The subject of Bye Bye Beautiful is obvious as well as verified – it’s about firing Tarja from Nightwish. In other words, the story can be like this:Part 1 (Wish I Had an Angel):Tuomas has a crush about Tarja, yet isn’t loved back.Part 2 (Bye Bye Beautiful):Tarja is fired from Nightwish in 2005 partly due to her lack of interest in the band, and her changed attitude making her a complete bitch (my interpretation of the words in the letter (see the sources)). This doesn’t have to have anything to do with Tuomas’ crush on Tarja, but still this is a way of making the clear statement that he doesn’t want to be with the one he loves. Also, as is conspired among many fans and tabloids, the real reason of firing Tarja was because he couldn’t stand not having her. Either way, I do think this was a part. It seems like it, if Wish I Had an Angel and Bye Bye Beautiful really are parts of the same story.Sources:* Tuomas’ Nightmailhttp://www.nightwish.com/en/community/nightmail* Tuomas talks about Dark Passion Playhttp://www.tuomasholopainen.net/darkpassionplay.html* Open letter to Tarja in which she is firedhttp://nightwish.com/en/article/6

Comments: (taken from the Last.fm article)

Rozen-rot:

Hey, very interesting, I didn’t know he had said that. Here’s my possible explanation. Its hard to infere meaning because the lyrics of WIHAA don’t actually make that much sense, but lets have a go at analyzing them anyway. ”Deep into a dying day”. Here, ‘dying day’ could represent the end of the old era, meaning that the decision to fire Tarja is on his mind, and he is ‘deep into’ it [perhaps he is refering to the infamous letter, ‘deep into writing it’]. ”I took a step outside an innocent heart”. This could refer to the realization by Tuomas that as the boss he has to do something which will not go down well with the fans. He won’t be seen as innocent, in many cases he will be singled out and hated. Or perhaps Tuomas already feels guilty for what he will do, and thus his heart is no longer innocent. Or maybe this is reference to Tarja, that greed has made her heart loose its innocence.

”Prepare to hate me fall when I may, This night will hurt you like never before”. Tuomas seems to be saying this might be the worse mistake of my career – ‘fall when I may’, and at same time preparing Tarja, acknowledging that this will likely end their friendship. But a link to BBB – did you ever listened to what we played?”Old loves they die hard.” Love doesn’t have to mean ”in love”. Tuomas has stated many times that he has loved her voice, and that she was beautiful, but call me crazy but that doesn’t sound like anything more then admiration. Tarja was his muse, and he loved her. But I don’t believe he was ever ”in love” with her. [He has a girlfriend].”I wish I had an Angel for one moment of love. I wish I had your Angel, your Virgin Mary undone”. Tuomas wants an Angel? In the first line that doesn’t have to mean Tarja. Following the first versus if Tuomas is considering firing Tarja, maybe angel is symbolic of a female vocalist whom he can love [not in the dirty way] and be inspired by, as is no longer the case with Tarja. In the second part, that might refer to Tarja, he wants her angel, as the way she was before the change in her character.”I’m in love with my lust”. Lust is a sin. Like greed. ”Burning angel wings to dust”. What I infere from these two lines is, its not working out. 1. These could be representative of Tarja, she is saying I’m in love with my sin and its causing destruction, literally turning the band relationships to dust, or 2. Tuomas is saying because he is allowing the problem to remain, he is causing the destruction. ”I wish I had your angel tonight” – Tuomas really wants the old Tarja back.’Drunken disguise changes all the rule’ – Tuomas admitting he has an drink problem.Okay not going to do anymore because I’ve run out of time. Might tomorrow if this sparks up a quarrel ;P. But anyway I would agree with Tuomas that they follow the same story but I don’t seen WIHAA as an unrequired love song for Tarja, seems more like a warning to me Of course I have the gift of hindsight on my side.Also note that it ends on ‘I wish I had an Angel’ four times, rather then ‘Your angel’. Suggesting Tuomas wants an angel [new vocalist] really badly.The problem of course with lyrics is that they are completely open to intrepretation. For all we know Tuomas put them together because they were pretty.

Quispiam (me):

Thanks for showing such an interest. I don’t think he was in love with her either, I guess I expressed myself unclear. Having a crush, being in love, those are two different things. I would say that either1) He was in love with her, but knew he couldn’t have her. That’s why it varies so much between (as your theory goes) that he wants to fire her, and that he says he wants her to be his (”I wish I had your angel tonight”); he knows it’s impossible, yet
he cannot help to think ”but maybe I can have her after all…” I know since I’ve been in the same position, and it’s quite tough on you. He also doesn’t say that he wants HER, that she IS the angel, he says he wants HER angel, i.e. what she used to be and maybe still is deep inside….or…2) He wasn’t in love with her, but Marcelo destroyed her through his greed, as described in Master Passion Greed, destroyed his old beloved friend. He didn’t want this to happen, he wanted the old Tarja back. Even though he’s not in love with her, he admires the old Tarja enough to refer to her as an angel. Think of her as a shell with the old Tarja either killed long ago, or trapped inside the shell. Desperately, Master Holopainen tries to bring her out, more and more realising that he can’t. She is long gone. He realises that he if he can’t reach the angel inside the shell, he has to destroy the shell too, metaphorically. Through firing her. I would say that the song is about dealing with those strong emotions when he has to get rid of his long lost friend. Think of it yourself; you have a friend who (choose yourself if you want to see it metaphorically or not) you love till the end, yet he is trapped inside a demon. You try to find your friend within the demon’s heart, but you slowly realises that your friend has become the demon. He is not your friend any more. He is, against his will, a demon. The angel is trapped within the demon, what is there to do but to through a burning crucifix at the demon?I’m sorry I may sound rather poetic, I’ve been working on a song text the whole day… 😛Eternalwanderer:@The above: I like your second theory. In addition to making sense, it’s ridiculously nicely worded.Anyways, your whole theory makes sense to me, though I can’t say as I’m nearly as familiar with every word master Holopainen has ever spoken.Solyndra:In the biography he said however that WIHAA was written (or he came up with the idea) when he went to a bar with his girlfriend at the time and that all the guys were lusting after her. And I believe it kinda pissed him off xD His girlfriend at the time couldn’t have been Tarja because she was already married, and BBB is definitely directed at her.So I think the storyline could be correct lyricwise, but I don’t think the actual facts connected to the lyrics are connected as well.And by the way – in 2004 the band and Tarja were still friends. It went wrong during the tour, not before, if my memory serves right.Quispaim (me):Solyndra: You’re right, he have said that. That’s the one con in my theory, maybe I should have mentioned it.And yes, they have said that it was during the tourings, but also that they never rehearsed Once together. The guys had one shift, Tarja another, so they barely met. Maybe Tuomas already thought of this, and the tour was what made it worse.Rozen-rot:I think tensions had been arising for a long time, I mean they didn’t just happen over night. Look at Century Child released in 2004, Tuomas doesn’t seem to be in a good mood writing that one. Then factor in he wanted to leave. Problems were brewing for a few years prior to that release.That and the lovely Mrs Turunen stating in an interview that she and Tuomas were never friends. Nice.Quispiam (me):Rozen-rot: Little is known about why he wanted to leave Nightwish after Wishmaster (or was it after Over the Hills and Far Away?), all he has said is that ”they felt musical differences among the members”. That’s also why he fired Sami, who according to him didn’t have a similar goal in their musical life (they’re still friends though), and why so much changed with Century Child. I don’t think it has to do with Tarja, really.Solyndra:It wasn’t just the band. He has also said his personal life had pretty much collapsed at this point..BlackDahlia333:I did believe that there was a connection between these two songs. Even the music sounds somehow simalar. So as far as we know that BBB is about Tarja why don’t believe that WIHAA is about her too? Tuomas has said she was his muse so I think he loved her (I’m not saying he was in love with her) Tarja had express her willing for solo career before the release of Once so maybe Tuomas was thinking his options.Quispiam (me):Yeah, well, I don’t think Tuomas was (nor is) in love with Tarja; neither WIHAA nor BBB really suggest love (more than friendship, respect, passion etc.).And yes, I know that if I were Tuomas I’d want to kill all the fans discussing his deeply personal problems, but hell, I have too much free time. GreyWolf84:I found your journal wandering on lastfm..I hope it’s ok if I add my comment on the matter..Actually Tarja husband really stated Tuomas was in love with her (read Marcelo Cabuli answers, in Tarja’s wikipedia). And Tarja confirmed it.Now I’m not sure which kind of love was it..for sure it wasn’t just a random crush since Marcelo quoted Tuomas own words saying ”nobody was able to stop his love for Tarja” . Maybe it was platonic, maybe it was more physical..but according to Tarja and Marcelo he was for a long time in love with her.Going back to the song..BBB is surely about Tarja . I don’t think WIHAA has a connection with her..When Tuomas talked about ”sister songs” I think he meant music-wise, not lyricswise.As someone said it, the song was written after a night in a bar with his girlfriend and guys started to hit on her..and Tuomas didn’t know what to do and was kinda pissed. I’ve never understand how the lyrics are connected to the event, however this is what Tuomas said.Quispiam (me):@GreyWolf84: Ofcourse, and I haven’t ”decided” for an opinion or theory of my own, I merely debate on facts and guesses. I have read Tarja’s letter, and I know that she and Marcelo over and over again has said that Tuomas did feel for her and that he did confess this, more or less threatening Marcelo to leave her. However this is word against word, and we’ll never know who’s right. Tuomas states he didn’t feel anything more than a crush for Tarja, and that was years ago, back in the late 1990’s. I would presume he more or less admired her, felt a platonic love, but that he had accepted that he could not have her. When Marcelo stepped into the picture he was pissed of, partly in jealousy, but mostly simply because he destroyed his friend. That’s my theory.Your theory on BBB and WIHAA is very possible, and I can at least somewhat relate the lyrics of WIHAA to that event, if it’s written from their point of view.

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  • .:Newlyn:.

    I think that WIHAA is, possibly about Tarja. But, I agree that it is about wishing she was her old self again before Marcelo came into the picture. It makes sense to me, that he wasn’t in passionate love with her, but more along the lines of, she was a dear friend to him and his muse, his inspiration for the music he wrote. Then Marcelo said his greetings and Tarja started to turn into someone else. It just makes sense to me that WIHAA is about Tuomas wishing Tarja was her old self again.
    I have to say, that I am just curious about what
    Tuomas thinks of Anette. I have read on another Nightwish fan-based site that Tuomas and Anette never really talk and that Anette said he was quiet and never spoke much to her at least. Which, I guess in my mind plays out as Anette is sort of the odd-ball who Tuomas pays no attention to. Not exactly as if he is using her, but her only purpose (to him) is to sing the songs he writes about Tarja and his past and there is no real connection between them other that song writer and vocalist who sings what she is given. For example, BBB which is about Tarja. I am just wondering if there is any real basis to this theory or if it isn’t true at all.

  • From what I know Tuomas has always been the quiet guy in the background, and he doesn’t really like fame whatsoever, nor being social. I think that Nightwish currently is the guys and Anette: they party and talk and she’s kind of in the background. But that’s the way it was with Tarja too, I just think they’re at least somewhat closer now.

  • The only way I can hazard these two songs as a coherent story is WIHAA as Tuomas vying for Marcelo’s angel, Tarja, and it’s driving Tarja away from him and further into Marcelo’s arms. But Tuomas wishes he had the old Tarja back, as she’s his muse. In BBB, he’s frustrated he could never get through to Tarja and things turned nasty. Master Passion Greed follows up with Tuomas lashing out about Marcelo’s perceived turning her away from him and the band. I’d explain in more detail but not reading the lyrics atm so I’m drawing blanks. But that was my first thought when Tuomas said the songs were interconnected.

    Also, about WIHAA being about other men vying for his at the time gf, that could very well have been true at the time, but I know even songs I have written can come to mean different things to me in time.